Separation of Church and State

[Deleted]

We always hear about "separation of church and state" in the constitution.
Where is it stated in the constitution?

[flybananas]

It's in the first amendment but it's not worded thus.

That was something Jefferson said later ~ that the first amendment EFFECTIVELY creates a "wall of separation between church and state"

the 1st amendment wording is as follows:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2010 20:12:58 GMT -5 @flybananas said:

It's in the first amendment but it's not worded thus.

That was something Jefferson said later ~ that the first amendment EFFECTIVELY creates a "wall of separation between church and state"

the 1st amendment wording is as follows:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Fly is correct.

This thread is intended to encourage people to read the constitution and understand their rights.

Was the 1st amendment intended to keep religion out of government, government out of religion, or both?

Separation of church and state can be a double-edged sword.
However, if your child (of the Christian faith) was in a public school and his/her teacher was of the Isalmic faith would you want that teacher to have your child praying Islamic prayers, or vice versa?

If Muslim children are attending public schools are they/will they be afforded the opportunity to pray at school?

I mean Muslims are supposed to pray several times throughout the day.

Muslims observe the formal prayers at the following times:

Fajr (pre-dawn): This prayer starts off the day with the remembrance of God; it is performed before sunrise.
Dhuhr (noon): After the day's work has begun, one breaks shortly after noon to again remember God and seek His guidance.
'Asr (afternoon): In the late afternoon, people are usually busy wrapping up the day's work, getting kids home from school, etc. It is an important time to take a few minutes to remember God and the greater meaning of our lives.
Maghrib (sunset): Just after the sun goes down, Muslims remember God again as the day begins to come to a close.
'Isha (evening): Before retiring for the night, Muslims again take time to remember God's presence, guidance, mercy, and forgiveness.

I wonder how many times a day many self-proclaimed Christians actually pray.

Perhaps the Christian community needs to drop to their knees and get busy.

[Deleted]

www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

It's you Constitution and the first 10 amendments are your Bill of Rights.

Read it.
Study it.
Understand it.

Many have died for it.

[dent]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

And the reason for this being the religious persecution that the original settelers of this nation had suffered. In early England, if you were not of the religion of the current King, you went no where socially or politically.
Jefferson's thoughst and feelings are interesting to read but have no more affect on law than do mine.
There is nothing in the Constitution calling for the separation of church and State, BUT what they are allowing now in the name of Political Correctness smacks of violating that part of the Constitution that says, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". More especially when these rules are practiced on only one religion while the others are allowed to do whatever they please.

[moderateamerican]

I'd like to see some evidence of an incident where someone was prohibited from freely excercising their religios rights. Anyone can silently pray to whatever deity he or she pleases, at any time of the day, and do it in plain sight of everyone else. What the law prohibits, is making everyone participate or causing someone to feel singled out because of their lack of participation.

I live and work in a small town environment where religion is everywhere. It's the souths version of the Good Ol' Boys Club. You have to be a member to play.

It forces people to hide their true beliefs. I know guys that go to church because it good for their career to be seen in church on sunday.

[jayar]

nothing to do about religious practices

just keeping religion from controlling the government

maybe mulsims contributed to campaigns

wouldn't want sheria law here

[moderateamerican]

Exactly Jayar, but I'll go one step further. I don't want any laws influenced by superstition instead of common sense and logic.

A god isn't necessary for morallity. Godless men can be good men.

[Cyberman]

Nov 4, 2010 11:17:06 GMT -5 @moderateamerican said:

I'd like to see some evidence of an incident where someone was prohibited from freely excercising their religios rights. Anyone can silently pray to whatever deity he or she pleases, at any time of the day, and do it in plain sight of everyone else. What the law prohibits, is making everyone participate or causing someone to feel singled out because of their lack of participation.

I live and work in a small town environment where religion is everywhere. It's the souths version of the Good Ol' Boys Club. You have to be a member to play.

It forces people to hide their true beliefs. I know guys that go to church because it good for their career to be seen in church on sunday.

Is forcing someone to silently "think" their prayers instead of vocalizing them, not an infringement of the right to free speech as well as the last part of the 1st Amendment which states.... "?

Kinda like you said "forcing people to hide their true beliefs."

again let's look at the 1st Amemndment.
the 1st amendment wording is as follows:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I have to listen to vulgarities everytime I visit a public parking lot to shop. You know the songs that are so full of vulgarities that they would make a sailor blush and BOOM BOOM, right out of peoples cars while they evidently think everyone wants to listen to those vulgar lyrics.

Remember! That tolerance thing...it should work both ways.

Welcome to the forum Moderate.

[moderateamerican]

You are correct. And that's why there are noise ordinances which regulate such things.

But back to the issue. I don't care if you talk to the wall until you are blue in the face. Knock yourself out. Just don't expect me to stop what I'm doing while you do it. There are many more important things to do besides pandering to people who talk to themselves.

I'll apoligize in advance for any offense that is taken but I believe that if one makes extraordinary claims, they must have extraordinary proof. If you say you are talking to god, prove it.

[Cyberman]

Nov 4, 2010 14:31:46 GMT -5 @moderateamerican said:

You are correct. And that's why there are noise ordinances which regulate such things.

But back to the issue. I don't care if you talk to the wall until you are blue in the face. Knock yourself out. Just don't expect me to stop what I'm doing while you do it. There are many more important things to do besides pandering to people who talk to themselves.

Come on now, that's not showing much tolerance for others.

I'll apoligize in advance for any offense that is taken but I believe that if one makes extraordinary claims, they must have extraordinary proof. If you say you are talking to god, prove it.

No offense taken.
You make an extraordinary claim that there is no God.
Where is your extraordinary proof of such?
Can you prove that there is no God?

I don't see people of faith telling anyone that they must participate in a group prayer.
I've never seen where attendance at a church is a requirement for anything.
However, I do see people of no faith DEMANDING not to be exposed to such practices thereby stepping on the rights of others (the majority) while they themselves demand TOLERANCE.

While I see many hypocrites in religion, I see just as many double standards in people who claim absolutely no faith.
They demand tolerance, but refuse to show any tolerance.

Since Christianity is a "faith" based religion proof is not needed. If proof were required then "faith" would be a moot point.

On another note...
I still question the Big Bang Theory.
Science tells us that energy can not be created nor destroyed.
Yet science explains that everything came from a massive explosion.
Which I don't deny.
My question is this on the Big Bang Therory.
If nothing existed before this explosion....then what exploded.
Nothing?
What triggered such a massive explosion out of nothingness?
Science tells us that something cannot come from nothing.

We can dive into quarks, string, and other therories later.
:-)

[moderateamerican]

It is not up to those of us who don't believe to prove nonexistence. If someone runs around screaming aboutpink elephants flying around their back yard, should it be up to me to prove them wrong. No!!!

Religion is no different. It should be scrutinized just as thoroughly as any other claim.

Faith is ultimately a gamble. You choose to believe something without proof. In instances where it really matters, such as medicine, technology, etc., I'd much rather someone used a logical approach to determine the best course of action or to find the truth. Faith is giving up and waiting on the outcome of non-action, good or bad, whichever it may be.

The Big Bang Theory is quite a perplexing train of thought. I'm certainly not qualified to understand the math behind it. Very few individuals are. One thing is for sure. Scientist haven't given up on finding the answers to the ultimate question. Where did everything come from? They continue to seek for the answer while religion explains it away using myth and legend. I'm not satisfied with the guesses of men from antiquity and beyond who barely understood their world. Everything must have seemed extraordinary to them. It must have been exciting to say the least.

[Cyberman]

Nov 5, 2010 16:58:44 GMT -5 @moderateamerican said:

It is not up to those of us who don't believe to prove nonexistence. If someone runs around screaming aboutpink elephants flying around their back yard, should it be up to me to prove them wrong. No!!!

Religion is no different. It should be scrutinized just as thoroughly as any other claim.

Faith is ultimately a gamble. You choose to believe something without proof. In instances where it really matters, such as medicine, technology, etc., I'd much rather someone used a logical approach to determine the best course of action or to find the truth. Faith is giving up and waiting on the outcome of non-action, good or bad, whichever it may be.

The Big Bang Theory is quite a perplexing train of thought. I'm certainly not qualified to understand the math behind it. Very few individuals are. One thing is for sure. Scientist haven't given up on finding the answers to the ultimate question. Where did everything come from? They continue to seek for the answer while religion explains it away using myth and legend. I'm not satisfied with the guesses of men from antiquity and beyond who barely understood their world. Everything must have seemed extraordinary to them. It must have been exciting to say the least.

People of faith believe in an unseen God.
For which, you seem to show little tolerance for.
You almost seem angry and pissed off about something.

I mean the way you just joined and BAM you gravitated to the Religion area of the board. I bet if you asked the admin they would create an atheist area for non-believers where they can discuss ummmm "nothing" I guess.

Why does it seem to upset you that the majority of the world believes in what you call a non-existent God?

Maybe atheists don't see God, because they aren't looking for Him.

I can't see gravity, but it's real and it exists.

I hope you continue to post with us here.
No one has insulted you for being an atheist, why be insulting to those that believe?

[truisam]

>I can't see gravity, but it's real and it exists.<
You can also say you don't see Air,but it's real and you need it to live----right or not and I don't see GOD and you need him to exists.THINK ABOUT;

[moderateamerican]

Nov 6, 2010 2:02:14 GMT -5 Cyberman said:

Nov 5, 2010 16:58:44 GMT -5 @moderateamerican said:

It is not up to those of us who don't believe to prove nonexistence. If someone runs around screaming about pink elephants flying around their back yard, should it be up to me to prove them wrong. No!!!

Religion is no different. It should be scrutinized just as thoroughly as any other claim.

Faith is ultimately a gamble. You choose to believe something without proof. In instances where it really matters, such as medicine, technology, etc., I'd much rather someone used a logical approach to determine the best course of action or to find the truth. Faith is giving up and waiting on the outcome of non-action, good or bad, whichever it may be.

The Big Bang Theory is quite a perplexing train of thought. I'm certainly not qualified to understand the math behind it. Very few individuals are. One thing is for sure. Scientist haven't given up on finding the answers to the ultimate question. Where did everything come from? They continue to seek for the answer while religion explains it away using myth and legend. I'm not satisfied with the guesses of men from antiquity and beyond who barely understood their world. Everything must have seemed extraordinary to them. It must have been exciting to say the least.

People of faith believe in an unseen God.
For which, you seem to show little tolerance for.
You almost seem angry and pissed off about something.

I mean the way you just joined and BAM you gravitated to the Religion area of the board. I bet if you asked the admin they would create an atheist area for non-believers where they can discuss ummmm "nothing" I guess.

Why does it seem to upset you that the majority of the world believes in what you call a non-existent God?

Maybe atheists don't see God, because they aren't looking for Him.

I can't see gravity, but it's real and it exists.

I hope you continue to post with us here.
No one has insulted you for being an atheist, why be insulting to those that believe?

I'm not angry. I'm concerned for the world we live in and passionate about what I believe in.

Also, I apologize once again for any offense that is taken to my opinion. Don't worry, I get it all of the time.
I understand that the nature of my beliefs is insulting to those who believe in a deity. In your world, so much depends on the irrefutable idea that god exists and I'm here to refute that idea and tell you that god doesn't exist and that it's going to be OK anyways.

As for another forum area devoted distinctly to atheism, I don't think separation is what the world needs more of. It's far better for us to come together and discuss our ideas as a community. However, if there were an atheist board here, I suppose we'd end up discussing religious beliefs anyway. We'd just be preaching to the choir, so to speak. Is that what you think we all should do? Only discuss our ideas with people who think exactly like we do? How will that help us to grow and evolve in to a better world.

Yeah I did come straight into the religion discussion board. It fascinates me. I'm amazed at the lengths people will go to protect their superstitions.

You said, "Why does it seem to upset you that the majority of the world believes in what you call a non-existent God?"

It's because so many horrible things have been done in the name of religion. It's because people spend uncounted time and money on religion when they could be using that energy to solve world problems. It's because religion creates walls separation based on unsubstantiated myths. It's because I'd like to start a family and raise my children in a world based on fact, not fantasy.